Is civil unrest a good blueprint for the ZA?

Discussion in 'Zombie / Prepping related stuff' started by VWscooby, Feb 15, 2014.

  1. Ghosth

    Ghosth Over the hill but still swinging!

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    Zurk you are correct that landfills would be mined. For the plastic bottles if nothing else.

    Joerg, there is a huge difference between SHTF and 10 or 20 years after SHTF.

    Long term, of course your correct. But bowstrings were made from sinew for thousands and thousands of years before modern materials were invented. Then of course we are back fighting to keep those strings dry and useable. But they are certainly doable.

    Also strings made from flax, nettle, and other natural products will be useable.
    They won't be as good, or take as much load as modern fibers, but they will work.
     
  2. JoergS

    JoergS Administrator

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    As I said, weaker bows, yes. maybe. But the know how for strong bows made from scratch is lost, for the most part, as few people have that knowledge now.

    Of course you can make very good bows and bow strings from natural components, and without power tools. English longbows were made like this. But very few people know how to do this today.

    Mind you: We won't just go back to the 1000 after the SHTF. The world back then was highly organized, well structured, and had a great economical system that worked in a perfect way. There were water operated saw mills, great tools, and highly skilled craftsmen that went through an elaborate educational career in order to become a master.

    We will go to a chaotic world, without any order. Infrastructure, the flow of goods, educational systems, governments - all in shambles.
     

  3. studer1972

    studer1972 scooter trash

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    zurk: here's the problem with that flint knapper or person with the fab shop in their pole barn. The kings of old would hire an architect, engineer, or cannon maker to build a wonder for the ages. Then they'd often keep that person hostage or kill them, to make sure the savant didn't share the secret or make them for the other kings. The flint knapper/fab shop master will soon be held hostage by the biggest bullies in their area, killed trying to escape/resist, or killed so that nobody gets to use them. If the only thing keeping warband #1 on top is a savant, warbands #2 and #3 have a good incentive to eliminate that savant.

    Another problem with the pole barn fab shop is fuel/electricity, spare parts, and raw materials. If there are no longer reliable trade routes, the economy will either be static farming and reliance on local resources or mobile scavengers (picking the ruins and moving seasonally to follow the wild food sources). If the pole barn fab shop owner, or whoever takes/inherits from them, manages to coalesce a stable community around themselves, maybe they can set up trade with scavengers. Look at the Dark Age (Early Middle Ages/Migration Period/Viking Age). Technology was still improving over what the Romans had, except in medicine, but the base economy and trade were so reduced that big armies, long distance roads, and manufactured goods nearly disappeared in Europe.

    flipgun/ruthie: that strategy relies on the opposition not using Mongol tactics. "One of our brave soldiers was killed from cowardly ambush. We will now kill one hundred of you in retaliation." Even folks who don't openly subscribe to those tactics get frustrated when guerillas keep picking them off. Frustrated, scared soldiers/police end in massacres.

    joerg: slings are hard to master, but in a group, like smoothbore muskets, you don't have to be individual target accurate. You just need to send projectiles down range in the direction of your opposition and let the law of averages do its work. A group of pike/spear troops with slings could send a couple volleys into their opponents to force them to withdraw or charge. Same reason the Scots would lose to the English. The English couldn't charge the Scots' schiltron hedgehog, but the Scots couldn't stand there all day taking losses from the English archers. Unless your troops are fanatical and extremely disciplined, like the Swiss, it's hard to maintain the unit cohesion that makes pikes/spears so deadly while charging or falling back. When infantry loses its cohesion, they are ripe for the reaping.

    Can't find who said it, but good point about atlatls/spearthrowers. Only problem with them is the bulky ammo. Roman soldiers only carried a couple javelins, and even dedicated javelin troops didn't carry much more than a half dozen. How good is the range on an atlatl vs a bow or sling?
     
  4. Ghosth

    Ghosth Over the hill but still swinging!

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    Struder I'd be willing to bet that at over 50m the Atlatl will perform at least as well if not better than most traditional slingshots. Atlatl ammo may be long, but its fairly lightweight. I suspect it would not be hard to carry a bundle of 12-25 darts over one shoulder. If I remember correctly from my reading on the Atlatl they regularly shoot out to 100m. Hitting a person sized target pretty consistently.

    Joerg the other thing I think you are not taking into account is that people will be finding useable modern tech like low stretch fibers decades after they are no longer made.

    Rummaging through a half burned out house in the garage I pull out a tent, made of nylon, 100 years after SHTF you could unravel that fabric and turn it into nylon cord with only basic knowledge required.

    As for knowledge and skill of how to make a longbow, sure, maybe only 1 person in a million has it.
    But it only takes 1 to teach 10, those ten each teach 10 more. In a year you have thousands who now have that knowledge. IF there are places where people with needed skills/knowledge can get to and survive to pass that knowledge on.

    I've never built a bow from scratch, but if a good bow made the difference between my going hungry, or my being well fed, well I have every incentive in the world to find a way to make it work don't I?

    With a bit of woodworking skill, some experience with composites, a bit of basic knowledge of how to twist, braid, fibers into cord. Along with some time and before long you will have a weapon capable of killing a deer or a man. After SHTF I bet the numbers of homemade bows you would see will grow exponentially for the first 5 years as people rediscover what their forefathers knew.
     
  5. studer1972

    studer1972 scooter trash

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    Ghost: I'm talking ancient "David-style" slings.

    Thanks for the info on ranges. I forgot atlatl type weapons could be used with spear, javelin, arrow, or dart sized projectiles. Good reminder. :)
     
  6. Ghosth

    Ghosth Over the hill but still swinging!

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    David type sling should have range advantage over Atlatl, accuracy, well that is a good question.

    I suspect beyond 100m they are both "area of effect" weapons.

    Also the historical record tells us our forefathers hunted mammoths with the Atlatl, which is probably a whole order of magnitude bigger than anything anyone has killed with a sling.

    Do a little research into the "Clovis people" I'm interested because my grandfather found a Clovis point down in Mexico.
     
    Last edited: Feb 16, 2014
  7. CJW

    CJW New Member

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    What's sad is the amount of people that can't even change their own tire with out roadside assistance . Never been camping or fishing. And are anti gun. They'll be the first ones eaten.


    Sent from my iPhone using Slingshot Forum
     
  8. Flipgun

    Flipgun Well-Known Member

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    Given the resiliency of the Human Race and the plasticity of Society, I cannot see the world being in a dog-eat-dog mind set in 10 years and certainly not in 20+. The cycles of Nature are Lush Growth, Maturation, and Senescence; Whereupon the new season of growth springs from.
    This is the cycle of Societies as well. Tough times in the neighborhood? Sure. I think not as bad as many fear and certainly not as long. The Dust Bowl and Black Friday showed that we can fall down. They also showed that we have a remarkable ability to help each other up as well. So Prep is not a bad thing to do. Grandma had a cellar full of preserved foods and Grampaw had lots of ammo. It is how we are when we feel Winter coming on. Spring always happens though.

    2cents
     
  9. studer1972

    studer1972 scooter trash

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    Ghost: no arguments from me, the atlatl is one impressive weapon. I was very disappointed that I missed staffed hours at Jeffer's Petroglyphs last spring. They have an atlatl range there.

    Flipgun: The dust bowl and black friday also had intact societies to fall back on. There have been long dark ages before. I don't think we're headedf for one know, but that's how crises are. Nobody expects the Spanish Inquistion!

    One thing I wonder about is a global dark age. China and India were unaffected by the Late Bronze Age Collapse. China, India, and the Middle East weren't slowed down by the European dark age after the fall of the western Roman Empire. We're now much more globally connected than ever. Perhaps, short of an extinction event, dark ages are a thing of the past. The time, she will tell.
     
    Last edited: Feb 16, 2014
  10. WildBill

    WildBill The Silly Song Guy

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    I have a problem with the premise.

    I do not think that modern civil unrest is a blueprint that makes sense to use in the inevitable Zombie EOTWAWKI. Here's the problem- zombies have form of communal government. They are instinctual, and each operates independent- though seeming collectively- from one another. Civil unrest is always towards a communal/collective power ie- a government. And it has been demonstrated throughout history than when a government gets so weak that it cannot suppress unrest, a new one will arise and supplant it. Thus the unrest will not endure for five, ten or fifteen rounds of looting. Someone will gain control long before then. The scenario that you suggest, Skoobs, actually falls more into the topic of the type of guerrilla fighting typical of partisan/patriot warfare that may endure for a time- and even topple and win- such conflicts.

    -Wild Bill
     
    Last edited: Feb 16, 2014
  11. Cwren10222

    Cwren10222 Member

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    In the event you cannot find suitable rubber high tensile springs could also work. Just be careful not to pinch yourself in the process
     
  12. ruthiexxxx

    ruthiexxxx ruthiexxxx

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    Of course SHTF could be a global catastrophic event. Some say that Yellowstone National Park is about to blow with a volcanic eruption that would make Krakatoa seem like a penny squib in comparison. This could cloak the planet in darkness for years.
    In that sort of scenario I am not interested in long term survival. We have food enough for a couple of months, a home that is fairly easy to defend and enough weaponry (and usage skills) to last that long. I have got too used to a certain comfort level to struggle very hard for survival if survival does not seem worth having.

    But SHTF could be a very local phenomenon. Here in Spain things are polarising again. There is poverty and there is a resurgence of the right-wing/church axis. Just like happened in the late 1930s. Then in the civil wat Andalucia was predominantly anarchist/communist. Unfortunately the little mountain town in which we live was fascist...and it hasn't changed much :( If SHTF here then the fascists are going to come down on our ex-pat hippy community pretty fast indeed. Defending our little fortress would only work for a while. The last time it happened Britain sent a warship to Malaga to pick up British citizens. So it could be a case of escape over the mountains to get to the coast...a journey perhaps of a few days and only able to carry light weapons.
    But I detest imposed changes or attempts to control me (except by Sir of course!) and with the odds so much against us then I suspect my temper and loathing of fascism will give me the life expectancy of a gnat in a furnace and I shall emulate the Viking beserker and just take down as many of the bastards as I can before moving on to Valhalla ! :)

    (and I think I could take down a fair few! ...snarl )
     
    Last edited: Feb 17, 2014
  13. nijam

    nijam tiro loco

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    I bet for clubs and stones Albert Einstein told that is the way the WWIV will be
     
  14. kohlqez

    kohlqez Accident-Prone

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    I'm going to assume 2 things 1st that this is hypothetical (kinda obvious but I felt it needed to be said) and 2nd that we are talking about slingshots being used for combat purposes as opposed to being used as survival tools
    Assuming there was a zombie apocalypse civil unrest would NOT, at least in my opinion, be an ideal simulation. Firstly it lacks the mindless brain hungry corpses that would be patrolling the streets in hopes of tasting someone's brain matter, but also because in the case of civil unrest you have military personnel primarily worried about the general population where in a zombie apocalypse they would be worrying about the aforementioned brain hungry corpses. Civil unrest also involves the general population attempting to fight the government where a zombie apocalypse would have people attempting to wait out the zombies in an effort to simply survive.
    As for whether the slingshot as a viable weapon against soldiers in body armor I say no. Unless you have the sniper like aim of Arturo and are able to put your shot into the eye of your enemy from half a mile away or you have the resources and ingenuity (and raw strength) of Joerg and can project steel balls with more energy than bullets then a slingshot will not be an effective weapon against an armored opponent.
    for zombies, slingshots are excellent weapons I think because ammo is easier to find. At some point there just won't be very many bullets left in the world where there will always be more rocks, marbles, ball bearings , and castable lead for slingshots. Also since zombie skulls will probably be at least to some degree decomposed slingshots should have no trouble piercing vital brain tissue
     
  15. Cwren10222

    Cwren10222 Member

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    Granted we all know that ballistic armor is worthless against a ss but in post apocalyptic world it's going to be hard to come by unless it's made of something other than Kevlar. Going based on Jorg's movie idea 10 years in the future rubber will start to break down, metals exposed to the elements will rust etc. unless u have the know how to turn dandelions or happen to have access to a rubber tree or similar and know what you are doing it doesn't matter anyway. As far as civil unrest goes I tend to agree and disagree with everyone. During the early years of the apocalypse most gov officials regardless of country will be out for number 1 and to hell with the rest of us. However if you think of it this way 90% of the population or more will either be infected or become zombie fast food so would take many years to gather into enough people to truly have to worry about. Granted as humans we are a social group and typically try to find others. I can take it or leave it either way. This idea of social unrest and squabbling amongst the survivors and crap is one of the reasons I'm no longer a huge the walking dead fan. If humanity is to survive the whining, bickering, squabbling etc will have to stop otherwise might as well put a gun to your head while bullets are still plentiful and pull the trigger as it's much better than starving to death or being eaten. Whether it be ZA or just collapse of society due to global disaster your best bet would be to find a person or persons you are comfortable with and trust and get far away from populated areas as quick as you can. Will civil unrest happen? Sure I believe it would but I plan to be so far away when it actually does that I won't have to experience it. My biggest worry unfortunately will be the immediate chaos caused by rioters, looters, etc. than some wannabe government coming together trying to cause problems or thinking they know the best for us. In cases such as this I believe a slingshot could very well be your only saving grace as vast majority of rioters/looters aren't wearing ballistic armor lol