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Discussion Starter #1
Hi folks,

a less funny but very important topic is self defence in times of global terrorism. In many countries where (illegal) firearms are rather hard to get, many terrorists fall back on everyday objects like knives and machetes to attack innocents.

The recent London attack have shown two things to me:

1. Many people were willing to fight back to save their lives. Some heroic individuals even went on the counterattack to save others. One brave man attacked the terrorists with a skateboard to save a woman and died unfortunately. Another one attacked them with a crate and one threw glasses and chairs at them to lure them away.

2. Law abiding citizens lack the means to defend themselves against knife attackers under UK laws and other Western countries' laws.

So I had an idea to give them (us) more effective but legal means to protect themselves. As far as I understand UK laws carrying weapons and dangerous tools for self defence is strictly forbidden, but there are no laws forbidding wearing or carrying body armor. While stab resistant vests are pretty effective and affordable they have a major disadvantage: They are uncomfortable to wear. Most people don't want to wear a rather heavy and warm vest all day long on the job.

In medieval times endangered people like travellers and merchants had an easy solution for that problem: They simply wore bucklers. A shield or buckler gives you a big advantage in an attack with a melee weapon.

So I had the idea of building an easy concealable and removable form of armor/shield embedded in a backpack. With a stab resistant backplate from metal, ceramic or wood and some straps to wear it on your arm it could be a really effective device to fend of an attacker.

As far as I know there are no commercial products out there. I googled the topic and found a couple of bullet resistant bags and cases, but they are really pricey (up to 900 $) and bullet resistance is not the point: https://forcetraining.com/products/mts

So I think we have to built it by ourselves. :)

I will try to built one for myself in the next weeks.

@JoergS

If you find the idea appealing you could maybe built a device and promote the idea to your audience. A shield from wood could be easily copied and rebuilt and could maybe, maybe save lives in the future.

Best regards

naudiz
 

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Discussion Starter #3
I think its more likely to meet a real zombie then a Terrorist!
Dozens of stabbed and slashed people in Britain may think otherwise.

But if that thought comforts you, that's fine for me.

I'm better save than sorry.

If you dont wear full body armor you are still easy target.
You are a much harder target than somebody with nothing in his hands, no training and no preparation.

Did you ever do some self defence or HEMA sparring? Try fending of a knife attacker with bare hands and compare it with wielding a shield.

The results will speak for themselves.
 

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I dont think you need to worry about much about Terrorist attacks. Its more likely you get killt of a harmless flu!
What i worry about is this anti terror laws! They make evry democracy weaker.
Best example Recep Tayyip Erdoğan!

No Self defence only sport you coud use to attack. Quick and easy kills.
If somone gets in my back i am dead.

Best Armor dosnt help you if you dont see it coming i guess.
And when body armor, you need a way to use it as weapon it self.

Do you carry some self defence stuff on you all day long?
 

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To come back to the original topic of this thread, I think such an object would indeed make sense.
I watched several videos about the use of bucklers (e.g. [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yNyvLz9w69s"]this[/ame], [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-GJcj6n29oY"]this[/ame] and [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WGbrNpuxHL0"]this[/ame]) , and it sounds like they would do the trick.
They protect the defending hand, and you can also hit and thrust with them. Plus, if you find a chair leg or some other hitting implement for your other hand, you're all of a sudden not an easy target any more.

I'm almost always carrying a backpack, so this form factor would make a lot of sense for me. A key point would be that it packs very flat, so it doesn't use much space and can always remain in the backpack.
Making a flat pack buckler is a challenge, though. I think the bulge in the middle is necessary for stability. Just attaching a folding handle to a flat plate would make it too easy to lose the grip.
So the bulge would have to disappear for transport. I'll have to think about

Affixing the shield to the forearm with straps would be a lot easier, but not as usable in my opinion. You'd lose a lot of movability and range. With a buckler you can keep an opponent at arm's length, whereas with the forearm straps it's merely half that because you need o have your arm bent in front of you.

Regarding materials, I looked at higher class stab proof vests. They seem to rely on a combination of tough plastic like polycarbonate (thickness 2 to 2.5 mm) and aluminium (1.5 to 2.5 mm thick). Those materials are fairly cheap, light and readily available, so not bad.
Kevlar and other fancy fabrics would only make sense for a flexible protective garment, so I wouldn't bother with them. Plus, they are made for cutting protection. So, not much stab proofing, but almost impossible to cut to size ;)
But there's a a lot of other options. Thin steel plates, fiber reinforced plastic or laminates, tough rubber sheets...
My guess is, even a thin sheet of high quality plywood, say 8 mm, would be quite hard to stab through. Lots of medieval shields were made from rather thin wood, and they did reasonably well even against swords and arrows.

All in all, a very interesting idea. Maybe I'll give this a try. Have to think about a flat pack design though...
 

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Girls can't be ghostbusters :P
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this is the whole point of terrorism; to make us alter our lives for fear of what they might do to us.

the only correct response to these cunts is to do exactly what they want you to stop doing as hard and as much as you can do it. to make it so that ever time they do something they achieve the opposite of what they are trying to achieve.

hiding under a rock does not qualify.
we must do the opposite and fight the diseases in our own culture.
like that of cowardice and the urge to capitulate and the disproportional tolerance we have for anything that has
the magic word 'religion' to protect it.

it is not enough to kill terrorists, you have to destroy the very ideas that are their foundation.
including the idea that you can bully your way to getting what you want.

you want to do something to fight terrorism? draw and publish pictures of mohammed, eat pork, celebrate
women in bikinis and drink beer.
and let them know that it is because we value these freedoms that we have all this wealth and they have only sand.
 

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Davey i think its half right! When you fear terrorist attacks the goal is complete. They dont have the resources to finish you so they fight you from the inside. To piss off and insult peopel is the first way you creat more Terror! There is no esay way.
I guess you guys think about IS terror. But what about Germans RAF? Or the Irish IRA the founder of the Bomb Terrorism!

Buckler for self defense? You guys know that is a weapon made for open combat! Till that think is ready to use you are dead :D
Also its more agianst long weapons. Against Knifes no chance!
 

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Discussion Starter #8 (Edited)
They protect the defending hand, and you can also hit and thrust with them.
Indeed. Though that could be a problem with weapon laws, as a classical buckler might be considered a "Stoßwaffe" under the German "Waffengesetz" or an "offensive weapon" under British and Irish law.

So I would prefer to design it under the aspect of body armor, which can be worn legally in public in Germany, Ireland and the UK. :D

Affixing the shield to the forearm with straps would be a lot easier, but not as usable in my opinion. You'd lose a lot of movability and range. With a buckler you can keep an opponent at arm's length, whereas with the forearm straps it's merely half that because you need o have your arm bent in front of you.
Yeah, on the other hand a strapped shield is much easier to wield because your whole arm supports it, while with a center-grip shield there is a lot of strain on the wrist. That could be a big problem if you embed the shield in the backpack and also put your everyday stuff (water, laptop etc.) in.

That seems to be the classical trade-off between center-grip and strapped shields. Skallagrim made a video about this: [ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lRILN48S62E[/ame]

My guess is, even a thin sheet of high quality plywood, say 8 mm, would be quite hard to stab through. Lots of medieval shields were made from rather thin wood, and they did reasonably well even against swords and arrows.
I think I will go with wood, because I lack the tools for serious metal working. There should be stabbing tests with plywood on youtube. Just have to find some.

As an adhoc measure I will sew some straps on my cheapo backpack and put a large book in the laptop department. Let's see how annoying it is to carry it as an EDC. :D
 

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Discussion Starter #9
this is the whole point of terrorism; to make us alter our lives for fear of what they might do to us.
I disagree. The point of terror is to break the will of your enemy.

Arming yourself to give the enemy hell is not a sign of weakness or breaking.

We should look at Israel. There have been a "knife jihad" going on for years mostly ignored by the MSM.

There are people there going after knife wielding terrorists with frying pans and selfie sticks. I want these people to have better means to fight back against these ****ers and still stay legal.

I don't see what could be the problem with that.

you want to do something to fight terrorism? draw and publish pictures of mohammed, eat pork, celebrate
women in bikinis and drink beer.
and let them know that it is because we value these freedoms that we have all this wealth and they have only sand.
Agreed mate. But one thing does not rule out the other. ;)
 

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I disagree. The point of terror is to break the will of your enemy.

Arming yourself to give the enemy hell is not a sign of weakness or breaking.
Like any advertiser a terrorist is after your eyeballs and your attention. They are after a population that needs ghastly/horrific images to see the news. Like any advertising it relies on shock, awe and incredulity. It is also asymmetric warfare, where a handful of people merged into a population fight a large military.

Terror is especially useful against major democracies because the media audience can be persuaded to change political outcomes.
https://www.quora.com/What-are-the-basic-goals-of-terrorism

Looks like your way of viewing Terrorism makes it stronger :D

The American way dosnt work (Good guy with a Gun agianst bad guy with a Gun)
Arming yourself just end in hurting innocent. Specialy when you dont know how to fight. And noone can teach you how to use medivl stuff!
 

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The American way dosnt work (Good guy with a Gun agianst bad guy with a Gun)
Arming yourself just end in hurting innocent.

Wow as I return to the forum, this is what has I see.
What has become of this forum??

I'm going to try as hard as I can not to turn this into a political rant, so I hope it doesn't come across that way. (And if it does well then f it, I'll say it anyway)

A trained and armed person is CERTAINLY far better off than an unarmed person when it comes to stopping a terror attack. They can actually do
something about the threat potentially stopping it unlike those helplessly running in circles. And what about the police you might ask? They do a great job when they can get to the threat. An attack of this nature involves shock and complete surprise. With the average police response time often being 5+ minutes, said terrorist could have taken many many innocent lives. An armed civilian could have stopped the threat almost immediately. So the traditional American method certainly can work if preformed well.
 

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So the traditional American method certainly can work if preformed well.
It properly ending in all those "heros" gunning them self down :D

Wow as I return to the forum, this is what has I see.
What has become of this forum??

I'm going to try as hard as I can not to turn this into a political rant
Looks like where you come from you don't talk about Terrorism and how it all began?

Also i like political discusion! I always take the unliked side. Like now! The truth always pisses peopel off its kinda sad!
 

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Also i like political discusion! I always take the unliked side. Like now!

Can't disagree with that, last I check the majority here on the forum was pro gun. However living in commiefornia I'm very used to voicing my opinions despite the majority disagreeing with them.

I don't see how an armed and trained citizen have possibly be a bigger threat to themselves than the batsht crazy terrorist firing towards them.

And Let's think here who is safer in the event of a single gunman attack; the armed civilian or the unarmed civilian. Hmm its s pretty well documented fact that even a slow and relatively heavy bullet let's say 45acp from a 1911, (around 850fps) goes much faster that a person can run. So what would you have the unarmed masses to to keep safe? Can't tell them to run even it some manage to escape many other would have died by the time those lucky few escape. The threat needs to be stopped as soon as possible, a competent armed person is often the fastest way. It only takes one, well placed shot to stop the situation immediately, one good shot to save the lives of many.



This could go back a forth a few times, or you could see if there a more moderator person around here to convert to your philosophy. I'm clearly not that person. Come on your arguing with someone who put the phrase "Molon Labe" in my profile picture.
 

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My piont right now is, that the chance you get attacked by Terrorist (IS) is lower then a Zombie attack!
And its probably not the best idea to piss off a whole culture.

They simply wore bucklers. A shield or buckler gives you a big advantage in an attack with a melee weapon.
And you really think a Buckler Shild coud stop a armed attacker?
I woud say it a pretty weak weapon against a Knife attacker! Shild is more against long weapons i guess.
I think its better to retreat and get a better weapon if you have to fight.
In my opinion is a Stick, always best against blades :D
But i like to see what he comes up with!
 
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